tala_hiding: (snow white wtf?)
[personal profile] tala_hiding
So. We're talking about the wedding of River Song.

Okay, first of all, I don't like River Song as a character. I like Alex Kingston, and I have nothing against the actress, and I like the way she portrays River to a certain degree, but I do not like the way River Song is written. I think she got the raw end of the deal when it came to dealing with the Doctor, and I think that it's unfair for her to be manipulated both as a child and as an adult. And I think that it's a major character flaw that we never actually feel what she feels for the Doctor - and this "love" that she has is her main motivation for accompanying the Doctor as a (potential) companion.

I know that in New!Who, there's much more emphasis placed on romantic and sexual relations in Doctor Who then there was pre-Eccleston (or pre-McGann, if you want to be nitpicky about it) and I think this is simply a reflection of the times and mores in our present day and age. And so to present River as a romantic companion, no, as THE romantic companion, the One True Love of the Doctor, is to cast aside the others that came before her as nothing more than shadows in the dark. And the thing is, I'm perfectly willing to accept that premise if it was executed in such a way that was belivable and understandable.

Look, Rose Tyler spent two years - three, if we count the year that she missed between "The Unquiet Dead" and "Aliens of London" - and it was very clear, even from the first few episodes with the Ninth Doctor, that there was already something between them that wasn't quite as platonic as we thought there could be. For goodness' sake, even a Dalek was able to see the love the Doctor had for Rose! So when, in "The Parting of the Ways", she was so desperate to get back to Satellite 5 even if it meant her own death millions of years in the future, even if it meant tearing the Doctor's beloved TARDIS apart so she could look into the vortex, you, the viewer, understood why she was doing that, and why she was so desperate to get back that she became the Bad Wolf. 

And when she and the Doctor were separated by the Void, behind the walls of parallel universes, it was absolutely heartbreaking in a way that very few TV shows have ever been able to achieve. Because you knew the Doctor loved Rose, even though he never said it; he burned up a sun to say goodbye. Contrast this with the Eleventh Doctor's treatment of River, and how he manipulated her into a Gallifreyan bonding just so that he could restore the timelines. I mean, he said it himself: "I don't want to marry you." He manipulated River's feelings for him - feelings that, in my opinion, aren't even grounded in a particularly strong motivation for the character - just so that he could save all of history, so that he could fulfill that fixed point in time. 

And look - Martha Jones spend a year with the Doctor, staying by his side despite his less-than-stellar treatment of her, braving The Year That Never Was to save the world from the Tofoclane and the Master's machinations, and then realizing that no matter how much she loved the Doctor, he was never going to love her back in exactly the same way. And she chose, good strong woman that she was, she chose to leave the TARDIS because she knew that it was already becoming unhealthy for her to spend so much time in close quarters with a man she was having a one-sided love affair with. And here's River Song, knowing full well what the Doctor's presence meant in a world where timelines are collapsing and history is bleeding into each other like wet ink on fragile pages, and what does she say? 

The Doctor: River, you and I, we know what this means. We are ground zero of an explosion that will engulf all reality. Billions and billions will suffer and die.
River: I'll suffer if I have to kill you.
The Doctor: More than everything living thing in the universe?!
River: Yes.

She was thinking about herself, about how the Doctor's death would affect her. Rose Tyler came back to the room in Torchwood, knowing full well she could die but was still able to push that all away just to help the Doctor. Martha Jones walked through hell on Earth, knowing how Jack and the Doctor and her family were being tortured by the Master on the Valiant but she soldiered on because she knew it was the right thing to do. Donna Noble gave up her life so that the timelines in "Turn Left" would return back to a world where the Doctor survived his encounter with the Racnoss.

One can argue that these pre-Moffatt companions were different - they gave up themselves for the Doctor. But isn't that what makes a companion a companion? That willingness to sacrifice what they hold dear because it's the right thing to do? I mean, Rose said it herself: the Doctor teaches us how to make better choices for the good of other people, not for our own selfish wants. 

I'm not saying that one should commit murder in order to restore to integrity of a time line - on the beach, I think River made the right choice at trying to stop herself (or rather, the astronaut suit) from killing the Doctor. I think that even in the most dire of circumstances, our choices are what defines us. And yet, she also chose not to let go of the Doctor - her refusal to touch him in the pyramids of Area 52 - says that she didn't save him because it was the right thing to do. She saved him, or rather, she chose not to kill him, because she wanted him for herself, because she needed him to know that "[She] can't let [him] without knowing [he is] loved. By so many and so much. And by no one more than [her]." 

And I think this is my main problem with how River Song is written - we're meant to empathize with her without actually knowing what we're empathizing with. When we first meet her, in "The Silence in the Library", we're allowed to catch glimpses of what she is to the Doctor, and I think that what the audience filled in was greater and more epic than what she was made out to be. She was given no agency whatsoever in how she grows up and how she becomes a character in her own right - kidnapped as a child, raised to be a psychopath, goes back in time to stalk her mother and father in an effort to find the Doctor and kill him... I mean, what happened to Melody's choice? Even her "love" for the Doctor feels forced, as though it's only there to fulfill the requirements of Time. It does not feel as though the Doctor deserves her love; it does not feel as though he loves her. Certainly, he's cheeky about it, and he cares about her, but I mean - in the Moffat-era, the epic love story is reserved for Amy and Rory, not the Doctor and River. In fact, in most of the River-centric stories post "A Good Man Goes to War" simply glosses over her emotions and choices and, most importantly, her motivations as a character in this overarching narrative of the Doctor in the TARDIS, traveling through time and space. 

True, I agree, she's a badass in the proper sense of the term. She fights, she carries a gun, she's the muscle to the Time Lord's might. But these are all superficial things, in my opinion. She's imprisoned for a crime she was programmed to commit, and yet she swings in and out of Stormcage like it's her own personal dance hall. This, to me, does not seem like a woman bereft of choice, but she does seem like a woman who has been pretending for far too long to be all sorts of things that she no longer seems true and real. She is an amalgamation of what the writer wants her to be, a puppet controlled by invisible strings, and I don't feel what she is as strongly as I feel for other companions, including Amy and Rory. 

And I think this is my main problem with River Song: she's all surface and very little depth. And if this is how Moffat is going to treat her in the subsequent episodes, and if/when River becomes the main companion of the Doctor, I don't think I'll be too interested in watching Doctor Who anymore. Because it's not going to be Doctor Who anymore - it's going to be "River who?"
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Date: 2011-10-02 04:58 pm (UTC)
develish1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] develish1
That has to be pne of the best written summations of river's character, or lack there of, that I've ever read. Thank you so much for putting my thoughts into such a well worded post.

I tend to go more with the much shorter statement that River is not a character, she's a plot device that Moff uses to force his stories forward when he gets stuck, lol, but you put it so much better.

Date: 2011-10-02 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phoenikxs.livejournal.com
Nothing to add to what dev said.
This may very well be the most perfect post ever. Thank you so much!!!

Date: 2011-10-02 06:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azure15.livejournal.com
Brilliant. I couldn't have put it nearly as well as you have, while I agree about every single point you've made.

Date: 2011-10-02 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] othellia.livejournal.com
Contrast this with the Eleventh Doctor's treatment of River, and how he manipulated her into a Gallifreyan bonding just so that he could restore the timelines. I mean, he said it himself: "I don't want to marry you."

THANK YOU. I not sure why the Doctor/River shippers are taking the "marriage" as total proof of their ship. It was manipulative, complete goal-oriented on the Doctor's side, and not very romantic because of that.

Date: 2011-10-02 06:50 pm (UTC)
ext_395177: (Default)
From: [identity profile] tenthrose.livejournal.com
This is brilliant. Thank You.

Date: 2011-10-02 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anime-babble.livejournal.com
Agree with all this. I liked the promise of Eleven/River, but then they basically made River's life revolve around the doctor. The cool thing about her was that she seemed like she had her own life and her own adventures. But alas, it was not to be.

For me, there's no emotion to Moffat's reign. I'll be the first to state that some of RTD's plots were absolutely horrible, but his characterization was incredible. Moffat seems so concerned about 'clever' plot twists, that he spends no time on actual characterization so that I CARE about the plot twist and how it affects the characters.

I mean, when Amy loses her child and seemingly DOESN'T REFERENCE IT and goes about having more adventures with the Doctor, who was indirectly the cause of this, why should I care either?

This is the first time I debating whether or not to even set the series DVD set. If it weren't for Gaiman's excellent "Doctor's Wife", I definitely wouldn't.

Date: 2011-10-02 07:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] farsh-nuke.livejournal.com
River is the Doctor's opposite, his mirror and duality. He would die for the universe, she would sacrifice the universe for him. Yes she does it out of selfishness but love is always selfish, what is marriage if not the ultimate declaration of selfishness 'I want you to be with me forever and nobody else' you might not see the depth because you think River should be a companion/pawn or live a life entirely independent of the Doctor that occasionally entwines with his but River is him in reverse. He had a life then accidentally became a hero out of necessity. She was created to be a killer, to stalk one man, and consciously decided to become a hero instead without changing her main motivation in life, to stalk that man.

And 'River Who'? isn't that just the perfect reason why River is the Doctor's perfect partner, she can steal the show from him

Date: 2011-10-02 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sunnytyler001.livejournal.com
THANK YOU. I agree with all you said.

Date: 2011-10-02 07:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jeymien.livejournal.com
My only issue is that yes. This is pretty early in River's timeline. At this point, it's infatuation for her. She's the girl he cared about enough to die for (LKH). So you're right in that we're still seeing a very selfish River at this point. She's in a way still learning about herself and probably not grownup enough to a proper partner for the Doctor - as a companion, sure, but a life partner, she needs more and that's what the problem is I believe. Rose was still a bit immature in a way for the Doctor, or atleast, would be for the old man that Eleven is. She was a perfect partner for Ten, as he was as angsty as any early 20s trying to find out her own identity and way in the world is. They both found themselves in each other. Martha knew who she was and what she wanted. She was a doctor, a healer, and that made her a much more mature person. Mature enough to recognize that it wasn't going to work. Donna was also a mature woman. She never saw the Doctor as a romantic interest either. She'd been through a fair amount in her life and while she was aimless and drifting, Donna never ever had a problem with knowing who she was and where her values are. However, I'm not sure it's right to compare Donna and River and there was not a romantic relationship between Donna and the Doctor.
Now though... River is at the point in her timeline that she's just become her own person. She's figuring out who she is - gotten her doctorate in archaeology - and while she started it because of influence on her by the Doctor, who says that it stayed that way. She got a doctorate! That's years of study and dedication, to learning about the past. Time to reflect on herself. But also, she's still breaking that hold on her from the manipulation of who she is by the Silence. She's also still learning about love - the Doctor is the first person she's ever felt something like that for. I'm sure everyone remembers their first love. It's overpowering and amazing and you can't ever let go of it. That's the point that River's at right now. But also look at who she turns into at the end of her life. A person who sacrifices herself, to save him and other people. It's about growing up, and during the finale, River is still growing up. I think what the Doctor sees in her when he marries her is the person she turns into, after all, he has a unique perspective of seeing what she does with her life later.

Date: 2011-10-02 07:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katherine b (from livejournal.com)
Very well said. I did like River quite a lot in S5, but the way she was written in S6... Sigh. She totally got the shitty end of the stick.

"The Doctor: River, you and I, we know what this means. We are ground zero of an explosion that will engulf all reality. Billions and billions will suffer and die.
River: I'll suffer if I have to kill you.
The Doctor: More than everything living thing in the universe?!
River: Yes."

Also, I was really sad to see that the above exchange went down this way. I had been hoping that I had misheard it, but no dice. River will suffer more than EVERY BEING IN THE UNIVERSE because she has to kill the Doctor? Not impressed. Why couldn't she have said something along the lines of "The universe needs you! Everything gets effed up when you're not around." [Sidenote: I did like how the ep pointed out that many people love the Doctor, instead of the whole "he's a monster who must be contained" trope.]

Finally, the bit about being raised to hate and kill this one specific person, and then OF COURSE falling in love with him... yeah, no. That's not how it works. Obsession =/= love.

Date: 2011-10-02 07:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lovexwentxred.livejournal.com
This post is great. I don't have much to add because you sum it up perfectly. Thank you for sharing!

Date: 2011-10-02 07:52 pm (UTC)
veracity: (Dr Who - Rory OMFG)
From: [personal profile] veracity
Thank you. This is why I don't like River Song.

If you want to compare her to another (non-Who) character, she strikes me as Daniel Jonas on Days of Our Lives, who was the previous headwriter's plot device with a history of bad execution rather than purpose. She is nothing more than a plot-mover, with little fleshing out. She has no serious motivation, except possibly the fear we saw at the end of "Closing Time." But if everything is a very (badly done) love story, it fails on execution. Why it might have been interesting to explore, this series, if she really loved him or not, it was just an accepted "was" without build up. It's almost like she's doing to the Doctor what Moffat did to Amy from this viewer's point.

Frankly, the heavy emphasis is why I have been only casually viewing for the second half. I get that River's important but the scope of the Who world is so wide that there are any number of plot devices to use that are outside the Pond family. And quite frankly, I think that it's a swipe at the Ponds, as a whole. He took what could have been a great story (a family on board, or having to give up the adventures in favor of raising) and made it into a big old mess.

River could have been epic in that she's essentially part TARDIS, but she was too many devices (like basically giving the Doctor the ability to regen endlessly) with little character accountability.

Date: 2011-10-02 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sensiblecat.livejournal.com
River is a cartoon character based on the male fantasy of the woman who worships her man but makes no demands that he commit to her. Rory is the Marty Stu who will always be patronised and taken for granted by the woman he would suffer anything for, and will never be quite sure that she loves him most of all. And all these love-saves-the-day resolutions are Moffatt's way of working through his guilt at never getting to see his kids.

None of this stops the show being very entertaining at times. But you're absolutely right, it's hollow and empty. It's interesting watching people trying to come up with reasons why Moffatt has just offered them everything they loathed about Rose Tyler, turned up to 11.

Date: 2011-10-02 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] billa1.livejournal.com
While I don't completely agree with all you've written, your analyst of River v. Rose is right on target. I would add only that Melody Pond is a Time Lord (without any regenerations left) who doesn't know how to be like the Doctor yet (the mad man with a box). Hence his constantly giving her rules in "Let's Kill Hitler." In short, because the Doctor tutors her starting with this episode, she become the "badass" we've already seen, the one that's in his past.

If it's any consolation, River tells Amy that she just returned from the episodes: Time of Angels & Flesh & Stone. That means the next time we the audience will see her will be at the Library where she meets her end.

Again, a good essay. Thank you!

Date: 2011-10-02 10:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yadwhiga.livejournal.com
My thoughts exactly.

Date: 2011-10-03 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] redknightalex.livejournal.com
Brilliant job with this. I've always had a love-hate relationship with River, the mystery of her in Series 4 -- including the two episodes she was in -- are at the top of my highlights for the show. She came with a whole lot of mystique and power, with a bit of emotional depth, but she was a blank slate for the viewer. Then, as Series 5 and 6 progressed, you started to realize that she was little more than a coat of paint on a doll. I rarely felt for her, or sympathized with her (minus the Series 6 finale when I realized how much she was being used because of her love for the Doctor and all for a plot purpose; much like Martha Jones in a way). A cardboard cut-out for all the boys (the writers/Moffat) to play with.

I also very much agree with you on the changing of the show's view on romance from the McGann-era on. It definitely is a telling of our times more than anything else (although Classic Who Doctors could be seen as having a sexual leaning in some way, depending on who you're looking at) and how else would Davies bring the viewer in without a hint of sexual tension? It's what sells.

Date: 2011-10-03 02:22 am (UTC)
ext_29986: (Rose/Nine BAD WOLF)
From: [identity profile] fannishliss.livejournal.com
I can't buy the River/Doctor love story. To me Girl in the Fireplace is a precis of the whole thing. The Girl looks through the time window and sees the lonely Angel, spends her whole life idolizing him from afar -- and meanwhile he only sees her in fits and starts, spending a handful of hours with her while going on with his whole life. For Reinette or River, the Doctor is a romantic fantasy (not a real life), whereas for the Doctor, they are just one little facet of a whole and complex experience.

I'd like to believe that River's Doctorate or her career in archaeology flesh her out -- but we don't get to see any of that. We only get to hear her innuendoes without ever getting to feel any real tension between them. Whereas there was more tension and longing between the Doctor and Rose in any given episode than they ever managed to build between the Doctor and River.

I actually am not sure they were even married. I recognize the handfasting ritual where they tied their hands together -- but then he didn't actually tell her his name. And there weren't any vows. And also, she's living backwards now--- it's all very sad really. :(

Date: 2011-10-03 04:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phoenixrising06.livejournal.com
Excellent post. I do like River, but I despise the way she's been written. I might never have loved her as much as I did Rose or the other companions, but she had promise in the beginning, and frankly I think she deserved better than what Moffat turned her into.

One thing that's been driving me a little nuts lately is how River is being hailed for doing things that they wanted to burn Rose at the stake for doing. Rose saves her father and causes a paradox, she's a selfish bitch. River saves the Doctor and causes a paradox, it's romantic. Rose falls in love with the Doctor and is branded clingy. River does so and once again we're at romantic.

Fandom is a creature I will never understand.

Date: 2011-10-03 04:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allbacktofront.livejournal.com
I saw this post linked on Tumblr and I just couldn't resist responding to it; hope you don't mind!

Because you knew the Doctor loved Rose, even though he never said it; he burned up a sun to say goodbye.
I have to say that I'm quite new to Doctor Who. I've only just caught up on all of the newer episodes and I'm planning on going back and re-watching the older ones that I can find. With that I think I have a bit of a disadvantage in this regard. Since I didn't actually see the relationship progress over years of my own life and literally saw it in the matter of a week or two, I didn't view his goodbye that way. I definitely agree that the Doctor loved Rose, it was painfully clear, but I don't think he loved her in the way that she wanted him to. To me it came across as him understanding what he meant to her and him seeing the restrictions that would have been in place for their relationship (the restrictions that eventually the "other" Doctor was able to lift so he could be with Rose). I think the Doctor could have very easily loved her, and her told her that, but he didn't allow himself to do it because he knew it would have ended badly for the two of them. A lot of that I think has carried over into his relationship with River.

She was thinking about herself, about how the Doctor's death would affect her.
Despite being a HUGE River fan, I have to agree with this. The only thing that I could even begin to think of (and it's by no means an excuse for writing her that way) is this is a much younger River who doesn't fully understand. Yes, she knows that the world is suffering and would continue to do so, but I don't think at the time it was for her in her time stream she could fully comprehend. She's not as traveled, hasn't seen as much, and so is willing to see people suffer at her hand. An older River, at least in my opinion, would never act in such a way because she knows the repercussions. And in that sense I choose to see character growth from her.

Even her "love" for the Doctor feels forced, as though it's only there to fulfill the requirements of Time.
I have to see there are times when I have to agree with this, especially in the finale. I don't know if it's supposed to be River's form of teenage rebellion (though she wouldn't even know what she was rebellion against -- but in LKH she knew she was supposed to kill him?) or what ... but there are holes that were brought about in the finale specifically that leave me a bit on edge.

if/when River becomes the main companion of the Doctor
Do not want. At all. I much prefer her dropping in and starting problems (it's how I think she works but), but after the finale I feel a bit shorted out of my love for her and my ship. I know that with Moffat I'm never going to get the answers that I really want, but I also don't expect them. Out of all of the episodes that he's done I feel TWORS is my least favorite. Her relationship wasn't tied up with the Doctor in a way that was satisfactory, at all. I never expected River and the Doctor to get married properly (but that's a whole never topic), I never expected them to have this huge budding romance, but what I did expect was a bit of justification surrounding the things that River has done and this didn't give it to me.

It really did just feel like a young girls decisions who didn't understand what she was doing. And maybe that's what it was supposed to be, but it doesn't mean we have to like it. It would have been nice to see a younger version of her who we can then learn from her mistakes, and the finale would have been a fantastic way to do it, but I just don't feel as if it was executed properly.

I'm hoping that if in future episodes if Alex Kingston returns we are given a few more answers or get to see some things that can make her a bit more well rounded. I understand that it's hard, "spoilers" and all, but sometimes the audience does need that. And it would be nice to see if the Doctor could let go of (what I think is) is fear to love someone that goes all the back to Rose because he knows that they can't be together in the end. Otherwise it's going to make me feel completely cheated out of what I know not only the ship but the character could be.

Date: 2011-10-03 06:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] silverlunarstar.livejournal.com
Yes, yes, yes! I TRIED liking River, and I somewhat do, but Moffat slaughtered her character, much like with Amy. It took me forever to like Amy (except for the whole basic dismissal of losing her daughter, which is somewhat referenced here, but you'd think there would be a lot more angst over it; at least a little bit for each episode - like when she lost Rory and didn't even know it, you know?) and I think I've only liked her in episodes Moffat didn't write.

Anyway, River was WAY to self-centered here which, from my understand, this her post-LKH a bit more grown up from then, so I can see this happening because she hasn't grown up as the bad ass River we've been given. It still doesn't excuse her; other companions loved the Doctor and were willing to do anything to save the universe 'cause that's what the Doctor showed them to do. Yes, I appreciate that River cares for him and showed him how much he's loved, but the whole "and no one more than me" thing totally crashed-and-burned her. *Sighs*

Date: 2011-10-03 08:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamabone.livejournal.com
I think you worded it perfectly. In fact, I sent a friend your page and said "This!! This is what I've been trying to explain!" lol. Well done :)

Date: 2011-10-03 09:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] londonmarie.livejournal.com
The Doctor: River, you and I, we know what this means. We are ground zero of an explosion that will engulf all reality. Billions and billions will suffer and die.
River: I'll suffer if I have to kill you.
The Doctor: More than everything living thing in the universe?!
River: Yes.

This pissed me off so much, because like the Doctor said he would never want the universe to suffer if he could help it. And in my opinion no one is more important than the other except Donna, because she has been labeled as the most important woman in all of creation. But I don't think that River's plight of killing the Doctor is worse that people being tortured, killed, and destroyed because she refused to kill the Doctor Her refusal shows why in my opinion she could never be the Doctor's wife. She didn't trust him to have a plan to escape his own death. Trust is needed in any relationship for it to work, especially marriage. I wanted to like River too but I agree that she has been poorly written. I'm not saying I could do any better, but the writers are either not into the whole River/Doctor romance or they have no clue how to introduce her. I feel that the started out making her epic, but the journey there has been lacking. There have been very few moments where River shows that "Damn right I'm epic." One of my personal favorites is in "The Big Bang" where she's showing down with a Dalek. I think it would've been better if they had started her out as being modest and then building her to greatness. Almost every single time we see River she has a cocky attitude, and there have been very few if any humbling moments for her. The Doctor gets knocked down constantly, constantly reminded that he isn't the end-all-be-all and he learns from that. But River hasn't had that yet.

Date: 2011-10-03 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lemony69.livejournal.com
Thank you for this. I've been trying to write down what rubs me the wrong way about River, but you put it so, so much better than I ever could.

Date: 2011-10-03 01:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chiapetzukamori.livejournal.com
I love everything about this post - I was a bit distraught after the finale because of all the shipping celebration and was completely grossed out by the Doctor's "River's nights are mine" comment (although I don't believe he meant what was implied). Your post made me feel so much better lol

I don't believe for a second that the Doctor really loves River. Pity, guilt, definitely...but love? Or let me rephrase - of course the Doctor loves River, he loves all of his companions, but romantically and enough to get married? No way. How could he, given all that's happened? So thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me - that the "marriage" was really a manipulation.

I still feel for River though (especially after seeing her story straightened out in Confidential). No matter how you look at it, her story is tragic. Tragic because of what happens to her, unrequited love and all that, but also tragic because she could have been so much better. She had so much potential after Forest of the Dead, and I still think the idea of the two time travelers meeting like they do is brilliant, but its execution just leaves much to be desired. It's just a shame.

Lastly, I'm no Doctor/Rose shipper, but even I could see a much stronger connection between those two than ever between River and the Doctor. So....totally agree with you on that too.

Date: 2011-10-03 11:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fairwthrfriend.livejournal.com
I agree completely with the original post and all the comments I've read that agreed with it. I have nothing to add that hasn't been said before.
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